Shadow Minister for Communications, Transcript – 2GB The Ray Hadley Morning Show with Luke Grant
The Hon. David Coleman MP
Shadow Minister for Communications
Federal Member for Banks
27 September 2024
Subject: Coalition decision to oppose Labor’s Misinformation Bill
E&OE…
Luke Grant: Now I wanted to have a chat about this Government Misinformation Bill with David Coleman who is the Shadow Minister. Because of news, news has come to light that the Opposition will vote against this. I think many of you have an interest in it, but not everyone understands it, which is one of the reasons why I want to talk to David to get a deeper understanding of what’s going on here and why the Coalition have ended up saying no. We know how the PM likes to refer to them as the “Noalition”. Anyway, I’m delighted to say the Shadow Minister is on the line. David, good to have you on the show, mate.
David Coleman: Good to be with you, Luke.
Luke Grant: Thanks so much for your time. So you said today that the Coalition will strongly oppose Labor’s latest Misinformation Bill, which you say is an attack on free speech. I know this is front and centre for many of us that have a daily interest in politics. But for those who only occasionally tune in, tell me why or tell them why this is such an important issue and why you’ve decided to vote against it?
David Coleman: Sure Luke, absolutely. Well, this goes to the heart of what it means to be a democracy. Because this Bill basically says that if an Australian has an honestly held opinion – that under this law it’s deemed to be misinformation – that can be censored. And that means that our democratic right to participate in discussions about politics, about referendums, about even things like the economy will be compromised. I mean, this Bill has no place in Australia, Luke, and it belongs in the bin. We don’t, in a democracy, put governments in charge of telling us what we can and cannot say. But that’s what this Bill does.
Luke Grant: So who decides what is or what is not misinformation?
David Coleman: Fantastic question. So basically, the Bill gives ACMA, which is the government regulator, the power to issue massive fines for the digital platform, if ACMA thinks basically that the digital platforms aren’t censoring enough material, aren’t taking down enough misinformation. And so ultimately, it’s ACMA who decides, which means it’s a government regulator. And then, of course, you get to the question, Luke, how do you determine exactly if something is misleading? Because under the Bill it just has to be misleading. And of course, that’s often very, very subjective Luke. You might think something’s entirely right and someone else might say it’s subjective, it’s false, rather. And incredibly, in the document that describes how the Bill works, and it’s on that question of, well how do you work out if something is misinformation? It says, consult expert opinion and consult fact checkers. But as we know, both of those things can be wrong Luke and subjective.
Luke Grant: Of course.
David Coleman: So the idea that the Government should determine what we can and cannot hear about political debates is just absurd. Because when you think about it, the way we move forward as a democracy is by debating things. Someone might say something I completely disagree with, but rather than saying, well, that shouldn’t be allowed to be said, what we should be saying is, well, this is why that’s wrong and here’s a better idea. And that’s what democracy is all about and this Bill goes to the core of that and that’s why it’s such a dangerous piece of legislation.
Luke Grant: Plenty of us, look, I look at social media now and I assume I’m being tricked by AI, it’s just not reliable. But you’re entitled to have a view, as you say, if you honestly conclude that opinion, based on your understanding of what’s going on. The fact that that can be deemed by a public servant, misinformation and your post is removed, and the platform fined. That’s not what we do in this country. But at the same time, we want to keep young people safe. How do we deal with misinformation and at the same time keep social media safe for people?
David Coleman: Yeah well, as you know, Luke, I mean, we’ve taken a very strong stand on social media safety for kids. And Peter Dutton came out back in June and said we need age verification for social media to keep younger kids off social media and the Government didn’t do anything about that for months and months. Now the PM is saying he agrees, which is welcome. But that’s a very different topic to political debate amongst adults. Because we don’t want a situation where someone’s opinion is suppressed because it falls foul of a government regulator. And it’s quite extraordinary under this Bill, Luke, because the Minister for Communications can personally order investigations and hearings. So think about that in a democracy, an elected politician saying, I want to investigate this particular thing which I believe to be misinformation. I want to investigate this digital platform because I believe there’s too much misinformation on there. And you don’t need to be a student of political history to see there’s enormous risk in that. It’s just not something you do in a democracy. And the Bill also exempts certain groups of people, but not others. So ordinary Australians are clearly captured by the Bill. But anything that, say, an academic says as part of their job can’t be misinformation. So you could have the absurd situation where an ordinary Australian, for instance, disagrees with an academic about something, what the academic says can’t be misinformation. But what the ordinary Australian says can be misinformation, and that’s basically creating two classes of speech in this country. Totally unacceptable.
Luke Grant: That is, that is red hot. And I would say to Ray’s listeners, my listeners today, that that is completely outside of what this country should look like, in my opinion. You see David, I begin here, I can’t as you know, I can’t put a talk back caller to air, who would, who would defame or say something preposterous. And it’s not, we have decency and good taste and that’s in the legislation. I get fined, I get hauled off the air. Yet I could sit here and read, and you know this, for more than an hour, statements from social media, which would get me in every court of the land. I can’t take political advertisements from the Thursday before the election. Social media run and they don’t pay much tax, if any, in Australia, they can run political ads on their platforms right up until and including the polling day. I just think it’s time that social media had to deal with the world that the taxpaying Australian media has to deal with. Is there any hope that one day we’ll be in that space?
David Coleman: Look, social media has got huge issues. And absolutely, social media should be subject to the same laws as everyone else is. And the fact that they sometimes act like they’re above the law is completely unacceptable and that is not something that we will tolerate. But the solution to making social media companies subject to the law is not to say, let’s suppress the free speech of ordinary Australians, which is what this Bill does. Because if you’re a social media company, you don’t care about the free speech of Australians, but you do care about your profits and all the incentives here are censor content so that we don’t get these big fines and that we don’t fall foul of the law. And so that’s what they’ll do and in the process, ordinary Australians will be the losers.
Luke Grant: Yeah great stuff. I congratulate you on your stance, but this puts you firmly in the “Noalition” as the PM would say. You comfortable being there?
David Coleman: Look this is just a terrible piece of legislation, Luke, I mean, it’s incredible that they’re even putting it forward.
Luke Grant: I agree.
David Coleman: Last time they put this forward, more than 20,000 people put in submissions. This time they’ve given people just a few days to do so – terrible Bill and it belongs in the bin.
Luke Grant: Have a good day.
David Coleman: Thanks, Luke.
Luke Grant: That’s David Coleman, Shadow Communications Minister.